Nova PhDs

A forum for grads of Villanova's Philosophy PhD program

I don't think anyone would mistake me for an analytic philosopher, but ... (response to an earlier post)
Well, I don't think that anyone would mistake me for an analytic philosopher (aside from the large community of analytic Heideggerian poetologists at Oxford), but . . .

Your anticipation not withstanding, Joe, I think that I am largely in agreement with at least one interpretation of the first claim:

1) Provided we give "know-how" a broad enough meaning (hopefully not so broad that it becomes vacuous . . .) I think that we would end up with a good description of the way in which most 20th century philosophers are (and ought to be) commited to a certain kind of nominalism (I suspect that this interpretation would no longer be stictu sensu a form of pragmatism, giving some credence to Joe's anticipation of my possible recalcitrance). That is to say, philosophical thought is a praxis whose concepts don't have meaning apart from the linguistic communities that employ them . . . but, as John points out, at this point we're in pretty broad terrain. To my mind, this doesn't make it an unimportant claim nor even historically unilluminating. It strikes me that this first claim would be a little like saying that 17th and 18th century rationalists all held that the truth of a judgment depended upon proper use of the faculty of reason, whose development was critical for the progress of science and philosophy. This is both true and an essential part of their project, but doesn't really distinguish them from empiricists, for whom it is still true, and still important, but in a strikingly different way.

I guess I'm not clear how what we'd be talking about differs in a substantive way from the so-called linguistic turn, which cuts across the analytic-continental divide. . . This explains why the poor Husserlians don't make the cut (maybe somebody who knows more about Deleuze than I do can tell me if Deleuzians —- or Deleuzers? —- do). Similarly, I think you'd be hard pressed to impute any interpretation of what Fodor is calling semantic pragmatism to someone like Frege, or even to early versions of logical positivism and logical atomism (although the day I claim to be an expert in pre-analytic philosophy, hell will have already been frozen over for some time —- and deep apologies for this aside, I really enjoy using the future perfect tense and try to find cases where it is relevant, as you will have noticed it was here). Incidentally, while I agree with both of you that the second claim of Fodor is both obviously wrong and not a good description of very many philosophers, I do take it that a version of this claim was actually endorsed by the logical positivists, for whom, if I am not mistaken, the rules of inference were ontologically distinct from empirical investigations, and the exclusive proper object of philosophy (Philosophy didn’t get to decide what was shown, just what could properly be said about that which was shown . . . )

2) (I bet that by now you will have forgotten that there had been a number 1). If, however, you mean something narrower, then I take it this point becomes more debatable as an interpretation of either analytic or continental philosophy (it also becomes an inappropriate goal for what I will follow Heidegger in pretentiously calling ‘The Task of Thinking’ —- as an aside to any e-passers-by who don’t know me and think it’s insufferably pretentious, please be assured that my tongue is thoroughly ensconced in my cheek. To borrow a phrase from Al Franken, I’m “kidding on the square”).

If we interpret “know-how” more narrowly to refer to how to pragmatically engage in a (non-conceptual? or non-linguistic?) world, this seems to me not to describe a good deal at least of what I take some continental philosophers to be up to (and from the little, and admittedly idiosyncratic, bit that I know about analytic trends in the philosophy of science and cognitive science, I take it that it would no longer describe all, or even most, analytic philosophers either). To stick with Heidegger, for example, even in Being and Time, it isn’t simply the case that use-relations constitute Dasein’s primary relationship to the world. It’s certainly true, as we’ve all heard countless times, that in Division One, he argues that this is the primary form that Dasein’s everyday relationship to the world takes, and he takes it as the proper task of philosophy to explicate the meaning of this relationship. But even in Being and Time, before Heidegger sells the farm —- if that’s the word I’m looking for —— as Ryle, Dreyfus and so many others seem to have seen it, the meaning of these pragmatic relationships isn’t itself necessarily understood pragmatically, but linguistically. I’m thinking in particular of the end of Chapter Five of Part Two, where Heidegger is talking about historicality. Two quick asides before I try to wrap up a comment that is already far-too-long. 1) This same section will also be one of the few places where Heidegger discusses what he calls the temporality of concept-formation and the place where he most directly engages the questions this post is discussing in language that might be comprehensible to the larger philosophical community. 2) Although this chapter is crucial to the hermeneutic tradition, this also serves to distinguish Heidegger from the hermeneutic answer which, while less cognitivist than the position we’re discussing here, is thoroughly ensconced in the interpretation of philosophy as principally a praxis. This is because the temporality of discourse, which underwrites how we discuss and understand Dasein’s historicality, should be understood on the horizon of the present (through the phenomenon of dating) rather than the past . . . It’s not that our conceptual and pragmatic relationships to the world are thoroughly ensconced in the historical configurations of language that we think in, it’s that we think in historical configurations because we are beings whose projects project themselves onto the past. In this way, I think he might be able to avoid some of the scruples you all are expressing with too-broad a usage of the work language. As an aside to this aside, it’s interesting to note that in Being and Time, all of this is the task of philosophy, which would mean that Heidegger goes through the “linguistic turn” before he undergoes the “poetic turn” which supposedly happens simultaneously. My deepest apologies for such a long aside).

If I have a point here, and it’s debatable whether or not I do, it’s that the transformation of philosophy into practical philosophy isn’t necessarily the done deal that we’ve been assured that it is. Even if we endorse a version of what I would prefer to call “nominalism” and not pragmatism, and say that the meaning of our concepts is given only through some sort of intersubjective consensus (another concept which cuts across the analytic-continental tradition), this doesn’t necessarily entail our accepting the position that all meanings are therefore pragmatic. I take it that this is important insofar as twentieth century critiques of metaphysics (be they the critiques of Quine or of Derrida) largely depend upon such a move. Kant said that nothing moved him so much as the starry skies above and the moral law within. (My apologies for being to lazy to go look up the exact wording). My concern is that we post-metaphysical philosophers (urban-dwellers that we are) have let the bright lights of the big city blind us to even remembering that there are starry skies above. To paraphrase someone else (I’ve forgotten who), we’ve forgotten that there are ontological questions worth forgetting about . . .

I remember a discussion we had several years back, Joe, where I think we were in agreement that the ultimate horizon for understanding the meanings (and truth) of things was something like intersubjective verification, given not by an ideal community, but by factually existing socio-political communities. Where we differed (and correct me if I’m wrong) was that you took this to mean that ultimately, the value of all questions ought to be referred to the life of these communities (we only care about questions insofar as they pertain to humanity), whereas I didn’t want to make this move (while language, truth and meaning might be only possible within a community of human beings, the meaning of humanity can still be in a sense ecstatic, oriented beyond itself to questions that don’t pertain to us at all except for insofar as we are the ones being so oriented.) If I’ve understood you correctly, I’d be tempted to say that you were endorsing what we are here calling semantic pragmatism, and I was endorsing what I think I’ll call (referring to another conversation we had) neo-metaphysical nominalism or critical ontology.

I hope that some of this pertains to some of what we are talking about.
Posted by Ammon Allred on Thursday June 23, 2005 at 10:48am
J.C. Berendzen:
In a broad sense, your post pertains greatly, and is genuinely helpful to me on the Heidegger score as well as generally. In a more narrow sense, though, I think we are talking past one another, so I will try to flesh that out first.

I would surely agree that almost no contemporary philosophers are pragmatists that describe interactions within the world as separate from language. Robert Brandom (you will have to excuse me from constantly referencing his work, but I presently regard it as the bee's knees) has a very useful essay on "classical american" pragmatism where he makes the point that cats like Pierce, James, and Dewey were largely pragmatists in this non-linguistic sense, and in this sense we have moved past them. I agree with the idea that this is a surpassing of them up to a point, but I think the linguistic turn can be overdone when language becomes somewhat surreptitiously unhinged from the activity in the world of which it is an expression (here is an example of what I mean: for Brandom the "know-how" semantic pragmatism discusses is too often merely linguistic know how, viz. the ability to form sentences that logically express inferential judgements. My fear is that this becomes a bit "disembodied"...).

As for Heidegger, I think you mistook the reason I thought you would disagree with me. My fear was that you would assert that Heidegger is not really focused on the inferential properties of judgements, but rather some more possibly "poetic" relation to the world. Clearly this would be the case for the later Heidegger, because inferential semantic pragmatism would be too much of a rationalism, and would focus on drawing out conceptual relations in the world rather than dwelling poetically, letting being be, etc... But what of Being and Time?

Well, along those lines I should ask: have you read Brandom's essay "Heidegger's Categories in Sein und Zeit"? His discussion there sounds very much like what you are saying in the second paragraph after 2) in your post. Among other things, he draws out your point about language. Zuhanden things, I guess, can only be "taken as" something only insofar as they are "taken as" those things by our historical linguistic communities (otherwise, zuhandensein would be seemingly based on some kind of non-dasein related essence, in which case vorhandensein would be primordial, and that would be the opposite of Headgear's point, usw.).

As for your second to last PP, I completely agree with the characterization. I, as you might imagine, am utterly unconvinced that there are ontological questions (in any usefully meaningful sense of the word "ontological") that are worth remembering that they were worth forgetting (as opposed to all of the ones we should just forget and be done with). Nice try using Kant against me, though. But perhaps one day I will be brought to the place from which I can appreciate such ontological issues, because much will have been done by you in the interim to bring me there...
6.23.2005 12:35pm
J.C. Berendzen:
I should apologize for my rather labored and unsatisfactory attempt at matching your use of the future perfect...
6.23.2005 1:21pm
John Whitmire:
what's this now about you urban-dwellers not looking up at the starry skies above? that saddens me; i will have to weep for you until the time that you will have been able to see the full moon again (it was super-bright here last night).

also -- you guys use lots of big philosophical words.

but seriously: ammon, could you clarify what the following means and what sorts of questions it might include?

(while language, truth and meaning might be only possible within a community of human beings, the meaning of humanity can still be in a sense ecstatic, oriented beyond itself to questions that don’t pertain to us at all except for insofar as we are the ones being so oriented.)
6.23.2005 3:05pm
J.C. Berendzen:
I strongly second John's request for clarification of that passage. It could get to the heart of the matter, so to speak.

Two other things: 1) Stars are merely stars; any beauty or value they might have could only arise because of their meaning to those who are most prominently marked by the moral law within. I am pretty sure that I seriously think this: stars can only be beautiful for the autonomous, and autonomy is primordial. 2) Big words is fun. If you think this discussion was bad, you should see a recent personal (personal in the sense that it discusses his daughter's night terrors and my love (sic?) life (sic?)) email exchange, which includes copious verbal jackassery...
6.23.2005 3:28pm
Ammon Allred:
Stars can only be beautiful for the autonomous, but that doesn't mean that autonomy is always primordial . . .

I suppose the simplest way of saying what I meant (simple enough that it will, I'm sure, suggest immediate problems) is to say that human beings are, and ought to be, interested in a lot more than themselves (please indulge me the Heideggerian trope of calling such a description of the human being ecstatic --- at least I didn't say ek-static or some such thing. . .) To refer again to our friend Kant, despite my deep and genuine admiration for the 3rd Critique (please indulge me the Heideggerianism of considering this the most important of the Critique's), there is something seriously wrong with saying, on the basis of reflective judgment, that we can posit human beings as the purpose of nature, and certainly not free beings qua free beings (You'll have to forgive me, I've been reading the metaphysics and as always, get dizzy with the qua's or hos'es as I like to call them . . .) To go from the capacity of a free being to posit purposivity to things to positing that purposivity qua free being seems to me to be positing too much. It might be that only human beings, or beings who possess certain characteristics that human beings have to possess, are the only beings who can posit certain kinds of philosophical questions, so that they are the ultimate source of those questions but that doesn't mean that they are the only source of these questions values. Thus my insistence on the ecstatic character of philosophical inquiry. Another way of saying this, if only to be provocative, is to say that I'm trying to insist, contra both the pragmatists and the marxists, that the value of theoretical philosophy isn't reducible to theoretical philosophy, even if philosophy (considered as an activity and as a set of philosophical concepts) is nothing but a human practice.

Joe, your point on both pragmatism and Heidegger is well taken. Going on what you've said in these last few posts, I think that I would be amenable to the sort of pragmatism you're talking about (and probably more comfortable than you with it's possibly forsaking certain key pragmatic positions). And the question of whether or not the move to poetry marks a move away from semantic pragmatism is certainly a fair question. I'm sure Heidegger would say that it does. My hesitation with saying that it necessarily does lies in the fact that his critique of reason is so heavily dependent upon an account of reason which is much more theoretical, objectivistic, and realistic (in the sense of entailing commitment to the reality of what reason discovers) than the account of logic which you'd get out of the tradition we're discussing. Critics of Heidegger who say that his critiques of logic might very well apply to 19th century rationalists and to his neo-Kantian contemporaries, but that it misses the points of many 20th century developments are probably right, and I'm trying to give them their props, even if Heidegger himself (and most Heideggerians) wouldn't. Would the critique of rationalism apply to this set of beliefs we're calling semantic pragmatism? I'm not as sure, even though I think we can still agree with Derrida et al. that these developments continue to make certain ontological assumptions that tie them to the metaphysical tradition which made them possible, but which they claim to have overcome. I'm hesitant to say that the later Heidegger's critique of reason would necessarily entail a rejection of what seems to be the pragmatic character of language in Being and Time, but I'm even more hesitant (for obvious reasons) to say that his turn to poetry would then be beside the point. It seems entirely possible that philosophy, evaluated as a particular kind of language-game centered around universalized concepts, would have an analogous structure to poetry, evaluated as another language-game, centered around a different way of “conceptualizing” the meanings of words, but in such a way that even though the structures would be analogous, the particularities of each such game would be irreducible. Such a representation of the importance of the turn to poetry would entail an understanding of poetry alongside of, rather than, in opposition to, philosophical reason. Now, I’ll admit that all of this would require a great deal of working out, and that on the surface things seem quite different. But this is the source of my hesitance in going down the route you expected me to.

The essay by Brandom sounds great, and I’ll have to check it out.

John, I should also add the caveat to my ‘we urban-dwellers” that I still have another two months out here in Mechanicsburg. With the light pollution of an urban area, and the lack of cultural and commercial venues you’d expect from Pennsyltucky, it combines the worst of both worlds . . . How I’m looking forward to the return to Philadelphia, however brief it may prove to be.

Oh, and one last thing, they weren’t necessarily night terrors (mostly I just wanted to be able to bold necessarily again) . I’m still inclined to believe in the reflux hypothesis . . .

Ammon
6.24.2005 4:33pm
J.C. Berendzen:
In response to Ammon:

It does so...

Actually, there is a sense of the claim that "human beings are, and ought to be, interested in a lot more than themselves" which I clearly agree with, and would be a bit of an ass not to (I know what you are thinking: that never stopped him before...). However, I don't think that basic truth necessarily supports the idea that there is anything of value in metaphysics (clearly, if we use the classical distinction, everything I have put forth has been theoretical philosophy, though--but that is a different story). The things outside us that we are interested in are indelibly marked by that interest; I fail to see the use of attempting to describe their ontological properties outside of, or even in addition to, our interest in them. I also think that the attempt to describe the ontological status of those objects qua objects-interested-in-by-us is barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps I am like a Wittgensteinian in this sense, and think that all that could amount to is wordplay that wrongly attempts to outstrip language's own capacities. This is, by the way, a good part of what the paper I am giving at the APA this December is about, though in a different context...

Next: I find the things you say about Heidegger and contemporary advances in logic and philosophy of language to be fascinating. I have no knowledge on which to base a response to your claims, unfortunately...

On the other hand, consider this: Brandom, I take it, wants to say that formal inferential properties (focusing on the properties of conditionals) have validity (and, to add something that he wouldn't even bother to note, it would be fatuous to reject them wholesale. Someone might take this up with Nova's Phd program curriculum committee...), but their validity is not based on the primordiality (in perhaps a "Platonic" sense) of the forms of inference. Rather, they have validity as a formalized, generalized, and instrumentally helpful expression of historically well-established inductive regularities manifest in material inferences, which are primordial. I find this quite compelling (and almost considered describing categorical and hypothetical syllogistic forms to my students in this manner). What would Headgear think?

Finally, the Brandom essay is in Tales of the Mighty Dead. In it, he marshals quotes from B&T that really make Headgear sound like a rationalist of Brandom's stripe, with talk of assigning, refering, etc. I would guess, though that many of our friends would claim that he overly interprets this talk as epistemic, in a way analogous to what Dreyfus supposedly does.

Actually finally, props on the use of the term "Pennsyltucky."
6.24.2005 5:09pm